Curse

Shadowmere · Apr 03, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

I was just playing through the Saul's story and a thought struck me near the end of the last cinematic, "Why did the mursaat take saul away with them?"

more to the point what did they want with Saul and not the other white mantle that were with him?

Trying to figure out a reasoning for this I wondered, what if the Mursaat are actually human? It would certaintly help explain their physical features, but also why they take such interest in human affairs over the other species.

Just my rambling theory here, but I believe the mursaat (and possibly Seer's as well) were both once regular humans, who after delving into powerful magic were transformed more or less, allowing them all the abilities of the Mursaat we know today.

It seems that the Mursaat feel they've "evolved" beyond humanity and have lost much of their respect for human life, as is evidenced by their killing of their white mantle followers after the battle of kryta. In particular the killing of those white mantle got me thinking the most, why did the mursaat kill them off? Obviously because they wanted themselves to remain a "secret" or "unseen" leaving only the 3 (dorian, thommis and hablion) to tell the tale, however I think there may have been another reason for the killing of them.

I think they may have actually been "harvesting" those white mantle's life force much like the bloodstones do, but instead of being used to charge soul batteries I think the intent was to gather enough life energy to "create" or "ascend" a new mursaat...namely Saul.

Also, this overal theory may help explain the war between the Seers and the Mursaat. The Mursaat are very power hungry and seem to have a great disrespect for life, the Seers likely saw the Mursaat as becoming too dangerous, as they had immense power and a very foul attitude towards others. As for the origin of the Seers themselves they may have "evolved" in a similar fashion as the Mursaat or they may be an entirerly alien race.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit incoherently, but to sum this up;

The Mursaat are humans that used powerful magic and the life force of other humans to grant them incredible powers
The Mursaat took Saul with them with the intent of making him into a Mursaat
They "harvested" the white mantle that were with Saul to fuel this transformation, as Mursaat powers are made by taking the life of others

Again just my theory, but I think it makes sense overall

oracle.delphi · Apr 03, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

guild wars two...us versus uber mursaat saul? lol

Randvek · Apr 03, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Not sure, but they must have done *something* with Saul. I mean, they felt like he owed them big, and they intended to cash in.

Considering the guy in EOTN (Justicar Naveed) who is cursed, it made it sound like he wanted to be uncursed before the Mursaat in him took over. It's not explicitly said that Lazarus was going to take over, I think, but that's how I took it.

My take? I don't think they made Saul a Mursaat, I think they just took his body and had another Mursaat take it over. Yep, I claim the Mursaat are body snatchers.

super strokey · Apr 03, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

The seers are in league with the Dragons and draw their power from them, the musaat are like buffer to stop the rise of teh dragons at any cost created by the gods. (speculation 100%)

Konig Des Todes · Apr 03, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I would disagree with the mursaat harvesting the souls of the white mantel.

My idea:
-They just killed them off, nothing more. They did this so that the Seers would not figure out that it is the Mursaat leading the white mantel.
-They left the 3 "strongest believers" so that the Mursaat are continued to be worshiped.
-They took Saul to make sure that he does not destroy the worship of the Mursaat as the "Unseen Ones"
-Dorian, Thommis and Hablion do not disobey in fear of their own lives, so they spread the rumor that saul and everyone else was killed off by the charr. They then spread the religion in order to keep themselves alive.

If the Mursaat and the Seers were once humans, I have one thing to say...

SAUL IS THE SEER!!!!1!5!1!!one!!!

draxynnic · Apr 04, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Actually, I thought the reason the Mursaat took Saul was fairly well spelled out:

Saul had honestly believed that the Mursaat were good guys, and that by bringing the Mursaat to Kryta that he had been doing a good thing for his nation. All things considered, given that Kryta may have gone the way of Ascalon without them, he may even have been right, in a 'better than the alternative' way.

However, when they killed the other White Mantle apart from himself, Dorian, Hablion and Thommis, he realised the true nature of the Mursaat - at which point he became a threat. However, if the Mursaat openly killed him, this may have caused the other three to rebel where the deaths of the others didn't (you can explain some cannon fodder dying because they didn't have the strength of faith to survive the encounter. You can't really claim this about your chosen prophet) so they took him instead. It's entirely possible that they took him just so they could do away with him somewhere out of sight of the other three.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 04, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

^^^^
That makes more sense then anything else, and is more in depth then what I said

. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Mursaat put saul on the bloodstone before killing him.

Duncan Idaho · Jul 06, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Once again, this thread outlines the ambiguousity on the Mursaats nature. Most players tend to associate Mursaats with evil, or another kind of "bad guys" band. This is the point I don't agree with.

First of all, Mursaats and Seers are races we don't know the purpose of. Yet, Prophecies campaign gives us one first hint : it is obvious that Mursaats and Titans are foes to each others. This is why Mursaats have built their main stronghold around the Door of Komalie, the very place where Titans are kept sealed. A second hint is given in the DoA. The followers of the Fury are the Guardians of Komalie who fight alongside with the Titans in the Foundry (thus making the 'guardian' clearly meaning 'protectors'). So, my first point is, Mursaats are clearly hostile towards Titans which are, through the all game, a threat to Tyria.

Second of all, it has to be remembered why the players are led to consider the Mursaats as foe. When arriving in LA, and untill Maguuma, we get aligned with the White Mantle in our try for containing the undead invastion of Kryta. It is only when we discover that the WM sacrifices those who are gifted with the true sight that we decide to turn against them and help the Shining Blade. The same Shining Blade seems to be motives in Prophecies with 'pure' intentions (saving inocents). Yet we learn in GWEN, and in GW2 background, that the first motivations of the Shining Blade is to restore the king as the ruler of Kryta. Even if it is not mentionned which goal was the first proclaimed, it is not obvious that the Shining Blade' war is based on altruism only. Remeber that this killing of innoncents was meant to prevent the Flame Seeker's Prophecy, who foresight the unleashing of the Titans ...

So, my final point is, we don't know whether Mursaats are a bad-intentioned race, or a bunch of highly evolved creatures that does not care about other races, or even if they had to embody the unpleasant role of the Justicar who needs to sacrifice some innocents in order to protect the majority. I take it for granted the very words of Lazarus the Dire :

Quote:

"Our power is great. Have no fear that we will succeed in saving Kryta tonight."

Objectively, I think the real purpose of the Mursaats cannot be guessed, unfortunately. But giving the fact that they wanted to kept the Titans sealed, I don't have such a bad opinion on them.

shoyon456 · Jul 06, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

My turn. I would not say that the mursaat did anything for Kryta or Saul without the intent of getting something out of it. I would say that the mursaat are "neutral" guardians, who simply strike at whatever prevents them from filling their duties. All things considered, it seems like the mursaat have been quite busy, what with directing the white mantle, guarding the door of komalie, and trying to take down your hero.

I feel that they are a separate race, like the seers, that simply evolved some time after glint was born. What makes this tale more interesting is the similarity they share to enchanted bows/swords in the crystal desert. This may be coincidence, but only anet knows. This may be off topic, but I have a feeling the enchanted enemies in the desert are remnants of a war the mursaat waged against abaddon and/or leftovers from the seer war. This war may have somehow pushed the evolution of the mursaat forward and narowed their development into only caster classes.

Anyhow, back to Saul. I think that the Saul was one of the very first of the chosen. The mursaat were at first delighted to find such a magically apt human, but quickly realized that this would be their downfall as they had known of the flameseeker prophecies. A deal between Saul and the mursaat was made, and once the charr were driven back, they killed the other white mantle to demonstrate their power and strike fear into hablion and the others that were left alive, so that they would not come looking for Saul. Of course, it would have been useless because Saul was simply sacrificed on the bloodstone. Although the mursaat did not break the deal, they twisted the situation to benefit them the best they could.

The mursaat accomplished 3 things through Saul...
1. Learning that killing the Chosen on the bloodstone would provide excess energy to seal them.

2. Gaining a following that would basically deliver the Chosen to be sacrificed to them.

3. Preventing the Flameseeker Prophecies from occuring (although we know they do not succeed).

Free Runner · Jul 06, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Once again, this thread outlines the ambiguousity on the Mursaats nature. Most players tend to associate Mursaats with evil, or another kind of "bad guys" band. This is the point I don't agree with.

First of all, Mursaats and Seers are races we don't know the purpose of. Yet, Prophecies campaign gives us one first hint : it is obvious that Mursaats and Titans are foes to each others. This is why Mursaats have built their main stronghold around the Door of Komalie, the very place where Titans are kept sealed. A second hint is given in the DoA. The followers of the Fury are the Guardians of Komalie who fight alongside with the Titans in the Foundry (thus making the 'guardian' clearly meaning 'protectors'). So, my first point is, Mursaats are clearly hostile towards Titans which are, through the all game, a threat to Tyria.

The Seers are also enemies to the Mursaat and judgeing from their help, the Titans. Also we dont know if the Mursaat built that stronghold. In Abaddons Gate we see the exact same bridge found in Abaddons Mouth suggesting that the stronghold found in Abaddons Mouth may of belonged to a former army of the gods (Or Abaddon seeing as that area seems to be named after him) since the Realm of Torment is connected to that area. The Mursaat just took hold of it.

Now the reason the Mursaat are hostile to the Titans is because it was predicted in the Flameseeker Prophecies that the Titans would be the Mursaats downfall. Its not to save Tyria but to save themselves. That doesnt make them the bad guys though - alot of races seem to look out for only themselves.

Quote:

Second of all, it has to be remembered why the players are led to consider the Mursaats as foe. When arriving in LA, and untill Maguuma, we get aligned with the White Mantle in our try for containing the undead invastion of Kryta. It is only when we discover that the WM sacrifices those who are gifted with the true sight that we decide to turn against them and help the Shining Blade. The same Shining Blade seems to be motives in Prophecies with 'pure' intentions (saving inocents). Yet we learn in GWEN, and in GW2 background, that the first motivations of the Shining Blade is to restore the king as the ruler of Kryta. Even if it is not mentionned which goal was the first proclaimed, it is not obvious that the Shining Blade' war is based on altruism only. Remeber that this killing of innoncents was meant to prevent the Flame Seeker's Prophecy, who foresight the unleashing of the Titans ...

Lets remember that no groups other than Glint, the Mursaat and the Lich know of the Flameseeker Prophecies at this point in the story. So the groups act on their best intentions - the White Mantle are shown to be corrupt, murdering Lionguards with no punishment. Then the heroes find out the test they themselves helped with was a front to kill possible people who could carry out the Flameseeker Prophecies. The Shining Blade want to overthrow the Mantle believeing them to be corrupt and in doing this they want to return the Royal Family to power.

Quote:

So, my final point is, we don't know whether Mursaats are a bad-intentioned race, or a bunch of highly evolved creatures that does not care about other races, or even if they had to embody the unpleasant role of the Justicar who needs to sacrifice some innocents in order to protect the majority. I take it for granted the very words of Lazarus the Dire :

Objectively, I think the real purpose of the Mursaats cannot be guessed, unfortunately. But giving the fact that they wanted to kept the Titans sealed, I don't have such a bad opinion on them.

I would believe it would be the second: a highly evolved race that dont care about the other races. They watch over the gate to save themselves. In Prophecies thay are just a race that will do anything to save themselves - even manipulate a lower race. In the end we make them the bad guys through our persistance. 6 years after we destroy the Flameseeker and allow the Mursaat to be destroyed by the Titans, we find out there is still at least one Mursaat alive. Lazarus the Dire makes it clear that the mursaat will make humans pay in the future.

And he makes it clear in this quote what humans are to the Mursaat:

Quote:

Lazarus the Dire: "Surrender? That was never an option. Your only choices are death and...death. You are a tool that has served its function. Your usefulness has ended. Disappear, now, from this world."

Konig Des Todes · Jul 06, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

Objectively, I think the real purpose of the Mursaats cannot be guessed, unfortunately. But giving the fact that they wanted to kept the Titans sealed, I don't have such a bad opinion on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

The mursaat accomplished 3 things through Saul...
1. Learning that killing the Chosen on the bloodstone would provide excess energy to seal them.

2. Gaining a following that would basically deliver the Chosen to be sacrificed to them.

3. Preventing the Flameseeker Prophecies from occuring (although we know they do not succeed).

Both true (as far as I can tell) and good observations. I would have to classify the Mursaat as a "lesser of two evils" seeing how they kill people in order to prevent more deaths, which we do not know until the very end.

I would very much like to see more of the Mursaat and Seers, whether in GW2 or in some add-on in GW1 (yes, it is possible for ANet to go back on their word *again* and make more games for GW1). Sadly, events that take place before GW1 are all speculation really, would love to see an entire expansion that has us doing missions and quests that explain the past, similar to the BMP but much bigger and broader with what goes on.

AfroThunder396 · Jul 06, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

This may be off topic, but I have a feeling the enchanted enemies in the desert are remnants of a war the mursaat waged against abaddon and/or leftovers from the seer war. This war may have somehow pushed the evolution of the mursaat forward and narowed their development into only caster classes.

This is a very interesting theory. I think it's very possible that The Mursaat and the Margonites had a great war in the Crystal Desert. We know that the Margonites are allied with the titans in the Domain of Anguish. By bringing Nightfall and turning the land to Torment, titans from the Realm of Torment would be all over Tyria, thus threatening the Mursaat.

Personally I agree with the thought that Mursaat are 'neutral'. They don't hate humans or any of the other sentient races. Their one and only goal is to prevent the Door of Komalie from being opened and the Flameseeker Prophecies from being fufilled. They seem like they really don't care at all about the White Mantle. As long as they supply sacrifices to the Bloodstone they don't care if they are seen as gods or not.

Duncan Idaho · Jul 06, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Mmmm ... We could push further into this theory, considering some facts we know about GW2

Let's consider some facts I will use as starting hypothesis, so correct me if i'm wrong ^^

-> The primeval dragons were among the first creatures in the world
-> Then came the 6 Gods, followed by the Forgotten
-> At last came mankind, dwarfkind and other races.

We know, according to the Seer, that Mursaats, Titans and Seers are ancient races. Margonites were humans before.

Assuming that the Forgotten, Mursaats and Seers were contemporary fellows, we could name the Primeval Dragons the "first generation", the 4 races I mentionned above the "second generation", and the active races in Tyria these days are the "third generation". With the exception of the Titans, it SOUNDS like a race mainly has interaction with races of its generation. It would lead to the theory introduced in the previous posts, that is to say Mursaats (as well as Seers and Forgotten) are mainly neutral to "third generation races" if these ones do not interfere in their schemes.

Do you think that this could be a global explanation that could fit in the Tyrian world ?

Gmr Leon · Jul 06, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfroThunder396

This is a very interesting theory. I think it's very possible that The Mursaat and the Margonites had a great war in the Crystal Desert. We know that the Margonites are allied with the titans in the Domain of Anguish. By bringing Nightfall and turning the land to Torment, titans from the Realm of Torment would be all over Tyria, thus threatening the Mursaat.

Someone, I think it was Quintus from the GWO Lore Forum, asked whether or not the Enchanted armors seen in the Crystal Desert were related to the Mursaat and the answer was no. However, they could go and use that similarity to their advantage to expand on the history of the Mursaat for all we know.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 07, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

Mmmm ... We could push further into this theory, considering some facts we know about GW2

Let's consider some facts I will use as starting hypothesis, so correct me if i'm wrong ^^

-> The primeval dragons were among the first creatures in the world
-> Then came the 6 Gods, followed by the Forgotten
-> At last came mankind, dwarfkind and other races.

We know, according to the Seer, that Mursaats, Titans and Seers are ancient races. Margonites were humans before.

Assuming that the Forgotten, Mursaats and Seers were contemporary fellows, we could name the Primeval Dragons the "first generation", the 4 races I mentionned above the "second generation", and the active races in Tyria these days are the "third generation". With the exception of the Titans, it SOUNDS like a race mainly has interaction with races of its generation. It would lead to the theory introduced in the previous posts, that is to say Mursaats (as well as Seers and Forgotten) are mainly neutral to "third generation races" if these ones do not interfere in their schemes.

Do you think that this could be a global explanation that could fit in the Tyrian world?

There is something wrong with your idea. Titans are formed from Tormented Souls, i.e. they are similar to Margonites in the fact that they were once something else and are now what they are.

So the revision of your "generations" layout (for races we know) would be:

Generation 1) Ancient Dragons/Gods (it is unknown which came first, or if at the same time, but they are both very very old)

Generation 2) Forgotten, ?Mursaat?, ?Seer?(seeing how it is never mentioned the Mursaat and Seers were around as long as the Forgotten, this is actually speculation, the Mursaat and Seer could be the 3rd generation, and humans being in the 4th), Charr(they are as old as the Forgotten according to the Ecology of the Charr)

Generation 2.5) Titans

Generation 3) Humans, Tengu, Dwarves, Centaur, Norn, Asura

Generation 3.5) Margonites, Wardens, Oni

Generation 4) Sylvari

This chart only lists known sentient races (as far as I can remember at the moment, there may be more, and many more that can be argued to be sentient races but unsure)

Mark Nevermiss · Jul 07, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Regarding the fort at Abaddon's Mouth, it seems to me to be either fully or partially constructed by the Mursaat, you can see Jade shipments arriving on the docks in the place where you free Leah Stone.
Also I have no doubt that the seals, also made of jade, were built by the Mursaat.
The Jade armors that spawn when Markis is attacked at the Iron Mines are initially inside similar structures as those seen at the fort. Not to mention that they themselves are made of jade.
Where the jade "technology" comes from though is an issue for debate probably; seeing as Abaddon's armor seems to be made of jade too, I doubt thats his own flesh when we see his hands for example at Abaddon's gate (I imagine him as a giant margonite with tentacles sprouting from his head).
I wonder though why is it that Canthan jade has bluish tint whereas Tyrian is dark crimson.

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan Idaho

Second of all, it has to be remembered why the players are led to consider the Mursaats as foe. When arriving in LA, and untill Maguuma, we get aligned with the White Mantle in our try for containing the undead invastion of Kryta. It is only when we discover that the WM sacrifices those who are gifted with the true sight that we decide to turn against them and help the Shining Blade. The same Shining Blade seems to be motives in Prophecies with 'pure' intentions (saving inocents). Yet we learn in GWEN, and in GW2 background, that the first motivations of the Shining Blade is to restore the king as the ruler of Kryta. Even if it is not mentionned which goal was the first proclaimed, it is not obvious that the Shining Blade' war is based on altruism only. Remeber that this killing of innoncents was meant to prevent the Flame Seeker's Prophecy, who foresight the unleashing of the Titans ...

It could be mission creep, or the realisation that kicking out the Mantle wasn't enough - they'd need something to fill the power vacuum, and reinstating the royal family is probably more likely to garner support than appointing someone random.

Keep in mind, too, that it wasn't discovered there were survivors of the royal family until after we sided with the Shining Blade...

Regarding the Titans... Can someone actually cite them as being referred to as an ancient race? The impression I've always had of them is that they were constructed by Abaddon after his imprisonment in Torment.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

From wiki

Quote:

The Titans are a powerful and ancient race of destructive creatures, nearly as old as the Forgotten. They are spirit-like in their true form, but manifest in the most dominant aspect of their surroundings.

An ancient race nearly as old as the Forgotten. Although that is not 100% credible. I'll look for other sources for that some other time.

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Aye, an ingame or in-lore source would be much better. That particular paragraph was written when people didn't know what the Titans were, thought the connection between the Charr and Titans was a lot older than it actually was, and, in fact, when there was mass speculation of a connection between the Titans and the Giganticus Lupicus.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 08, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Found another thing to help clear the Titans as being Ancient. From Ecology of the Charr...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecology of the Charr

So, in order to fight the human threat, the Charr sought a god of their own. Two hundred years before the Searing, the Burnt warband, a group dedicated to the Flame Legion, ventured to the lands surrounding the Hrangmer volcano (translated into human, the name means "Jaws of Oblivion"). Upon its return, the warband claimed to have found gods for the Charr at long last

And of course, we all know that the Charr's gods were the titans, so I can stop there.

200 years before the Searing (202 years before post) is the current oldest record of the Titans. The only other mention of an Ancient titan would be by the Order of Whispers. That titan was captured about 100 years prior to Nightfall.

So they are ancient, but not as ancient as the other "ancient" races (Mursaat, Seer, Charr, Forgotten) that we know of.